Do they see womens entry into public society as a threat to their own power? Yes the punishments are cruel but they are lessons for humankind that dont go astray(commit immense sins) or else youll suffer. !poor womens, no possible for me life in SK. The quote by another comment above by a blogger called asmallquietvoiceinthedark summarised it all perfectly,Youre like a slave so broken by the machinery of slavery that you defend your slave masters against your own kind and your own interests. Both my husband and I did not say anything so I dont know if it was cut off as punishment or due to an accident or illness but I bet lots of people wonder when they meet him. (according to a 2006 description of it from Washington Law University). And then they are deported. I want to ask your help. If any body approaches the authority, the police will suppress the cases. Consulate/Visa Section:(202) 944-3126 If the plaintiff is absent and does not present a valid and excusable reason that is accepted by the court, the case will be cancelled and will not be open to resumption without a decision from the Supreme Court. The legal system is based on the Islamic code of Sharia,[1]:111 with its judges and lawyers forming part of the country's religious leadership or ulama. THERE MUST BE A WAY TO SLOVE THING THEY SHOULD GIVE THE THEFT 4 OR 6 MONTHS JAIL AND RELEASE HIM NOT TO CUT OFF HIS HAND THINK IF HE HAS GIVE A CHANCE TO LIVE HE MIGHT LIVE AND WORK SUPPOSE IF HIS HANDS ARE CUT WAT WILL HE DO IN THIS WORLD . [4]:159 Cases are adjudicated by single judges,[4]:159 except criminal cases if the potential sentence is death, amputation or stoning when there is a panel of three judges. vertigo by U2 (my first name is phil). Another Amnesty International report (1998). 3.As soon as you enter Saudi Arabia, they will take your passport and hold it and control your movement back to your home country. This article realy shocked me. Is it more important to seek retribution on those who break laws (eye for an eye) or to rehabilitate those who commit crimes into normal members of society again? If he could get an established muttawa from a mosque to vouch for him, then he might be lucky enough to be let go with a warning. Next thing you know is these bunch of hypocrites want to apply the Sharia law by bringing the neck of this innocent girl to the chopping board and all this without a proper representation and a fair trial. The Law of the Judiciary issued by Royal Decree No. In earlier years' editions it was "frequently". Would you not think the purpose of existence would be something of a higher purpose, for humans to use their intellect and ability to research, design, build and to have relations with other people? The Quran was already written as a modification of the Christian gospels that in turn where a political take on the original Jewish Torah that predates all of them and has not been changed (ever). I can see that it is very helpful in dispelling misconceptions in the minds non-Saudis, because you give an objective picture of how things are and do not support an unjust practise simply because it happens to be Saudi You are certainly not biased in your views. It supervises the lower courts of Saudi Arabia - overseeing judges' performances and new judicial appointments [1] - but also provides "legal opinions, advises the King, and reviews sentences involving death, stoning, or amputation". I read this online: [4]:161 These administrative tribunals, referred to as "committees", deal with specific issues regulated by royal decrees, such as labor and commercial law. what will happen if we both escape? Saudi doesnt have democracy. [4]:174 At present, there are two types of courts of first instance: general courts and summary courts dealing with lesser cases. [12], The Saudi system of justice has been criticized[by whom?] The SCCA will conduct an administrative conference before the Tribunal is constituted to facilitate party discussion and agreement on issues such as arbitrator selection, languages, locations, channels of communication, process efficiencies, and any other administrative matters. Take the case of the small Arab emirate of Sharjah. Quoted in this Nov 2007 American TV report, Human Rights Watch went so far as to say that flogging was "almost always" a component of any Saudi court sentence. i came up with a theory that involves the book of genesis (fig leaves) buddha (sitting under the bodhi fig tree) jesus (many sayings about figs) ross hornes book (new health revolution) and science (figs are the most important source of food for fruit eating rainforest animals). aamina.its been around 4 years since this posting was first created. UN Committee Against Torture, 10 May 2002 Fahd argued that the offence of khilwa did not apply since he was related to Khamisa, who was his own uncles wife and had known him from the time when he was a child. The courts are an essential pillar of the State. Truth is worst to hear sometimes. Approval of the draft law is issued after its presentation to the Council of Ministers in its capacity as the owner of the regulatory authority, in a secret session in which the draft is discussed and voted on in the presence of the concerned minister or his representative. HRW describes the implement used as "a bamboo whip about 7 feet long". Badawai was sentenced to 10 years in . ", Among women subjected to the lash in the Saudi prison of Malaz in 1993 was an Indonesian maid who, according to a fellow prisoner, "had been starved and tortured for two years. by Human Rights Watch) claim that floggings are "often" public. If the defendant informs his attorney or representative on the date of the court hearing, and the attorney or representative does not attend, or if the defendant or his attorney deposited a memorandum of his defense with the court before the hearing and do not attend, or if the defendant attends any hearing and then was absent, the court will rule on the case and its judgement against the defendant will be deemed as in the presence of the defendant. If there is a Creation, then there will be a Creator. Judgments, decisions and orders issued by the courts. Since Allah is God himself, how does it make sense for Allah to send blessings on Muhammad? On occasions they have been carried out in public, as in this 1970s photograph and also this one. The legal system is based on the Islamic code of Sharia, [1] : 111 with its judges and lawyers forming part of the country's religious leadership or ulama. If they attempted to run away or became pregnant, they were jailed and sometimes lashed". This section is dedicated to the efforts carried out by the Ministry of Justice in relation to litigation proceedings. behind close doors Saudi Royal Family and Elite do not follow any thing that they preach, DRUGS, Prostitution and CORRUPTION are the way of life in saudi arabia. It is the last stage of issuing the law in which the law is announced to the people and the date for its implementation is determined, a process by which the law is fully enforceable and approved. Cites press reports that Saudi flogging (which the USSD seems to think is something different from caning) is administered with a "thin reed" by a man holding a book under his arm. I must compliment you on your very informative blog. Why is that? God is perfect and he wrote that bible perfectly, human being is imperfect who wrote the bible imperfectly. It has often been the first in the region to implement certain steps, such as specialist courts for certain types of disputes and a class action regime for . Im interested as to whether this issue has EVER been seriously put to and addressed by the powers-that-be (Mullahs etc.) Fucking disgusting, how mindlessly some of you follow a book that was probably written by some insane crackpot that grew up without any real understanding of the world. It is the extreme rapidity of the strokes -- about four per second -- which is perhaps most surprising, and which makes this seem quite a different kind of thing from the formal and ceremonial manner in which JCP has typically been conducted in the British world (Malaysia, Pakistan, etc. After the divorce, he took our baby and I am unable to see son. Saudi woman, On 23 March this year, an Islamic court there ordered two women to receive 180 lashes for alleged adultery. equal also suggests that men and women are the same. I liked your comment the religious police go around looking for couples who seem to be too happy to be related! [10]:1620 The Grand Mufti (currently, Abdul-Aziz Al ash-Sheikh) is the most senior member of the judicial establishment as well as being the highest religious authority in the country; his opinions are highly influential among the Saudi judiciary. By the way, I applaud you women for what you are doing to extend yourselves and gain freedoms for women within these societies that are oppressed. Men 'Behaving Like Women' Face Flogging Islamic "justice" had condemned hundreds of young women to be flogged in the Gulf in the past three years - well over 2,000, according to two Asian embassies that have vainly tried to protect their female nationals - before deporting them home, penniless and in disgrace. Jewelry, TVs, computers and everything of value was taken. you are really a big mother dam fucker go fuck your self chris because your mind is not in your heAD ITS IN YOUR BLOODY SMELLY ASSS you peoples are cowards bloody fucking christians good for nothing. I think, these people donot respect other people, they think they are above all. One day the crunch will come and, as always, the rich elite will survive and the rest will be devastated. It seems that nothing has changed in this regard! sadly violence and torture and unfair teatment seems acceptable to muslims. May you leave this Earth and be guided to paradise ASAP while wearing your vest. [8] The king also appointed a new head of the Board of Grievances and Abdulrahman Al Kelya as the first chief justice of the new Supreme Court.[8][9]. Soldiers administering corporal punishment in the main square of Riyadh. Saudi government is hell bent on applying their version of Sharia law when the perpetrators of a misdemeanor or felony happens to be the destitute people from poor Asian counties. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. One that I heard of isthat they go in groups. If a foreigner is married to his wife in his own country and works in Saudi then he met a nurse and became a couple? He seemed like a fairly good military-political leader and was smart, however he was also violent, somewhat hypocritical in that the rules he promoted he did not fully apply to himself. US State Department Report on Human Rights Practices for 2006 Way to go on this blog. Obstacles to power of attorney in litigation. The cane splits the skin and rips at the bare flesh. Please remember when commenting the reason we suspended similar punishments in developed western countries wasnt because we felt the death sentence was too harsh (or barbaric as one poster put it) for any crime. Now if what she told us is not true, tell us. Thanks for the insight by the way. On 6 September, a 24- year-old woman was sentenced to 90 lashes of the cane for alleged adultery; four days later an Asian maid was ordered to be whipped 180 times for "indulging in sex outside marriage". Judgments, court judgement, decisions of arbitrators, and authenticated instruments in a foreign country. They are then beaten full-force with a four-foot rattan cane that has been soaked in water. However, its your point of view, at last we all have to return to God to answer what we did on earth. Monday - Friday 9:00am5:00pm, Main Number:(202) 342-3800 PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! If the point is that the punishment is too harsh, although I am a woman, I dont think it is too harsh. How can such a system exist? UN Human Rights Commission: 1997: Thematic Reports 4. The HRW spokesperson adds that the accused is "shackled" during the punishment, and is "sometimes" permitted to wear a single layer of clothing; I had had the impression that that was always so. It is very difficult to get a fair trail for any person. 9, Diplomatic Quarter Riyadh, Saudi Arabia Telephone: (966) (11) 488-3800 Emergency Telephone: (966) (11) 488-3800 Fax: (966) (11) 488-7670 RiyadhACS@state.gov. Thats not acceptable. [15][16] On 26 June 2011, the court started trials of 85 people suspected of being involved in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and the 2003 Riyadh compound bombings,[14] and in September 2011 another 41 al-Qaeda suspects appeared in the court. At all events, this punishment is being inflicted by officials in uniform, who are presumably police or judicial officers of some sort. If a child is chopped to pieces or even raped as punishment because it was viewed that it fit their actions, would you still agree to it? that is not true, they are wahabis and they believe that who ever comes in here is slave to work for them. Is it a true sign of being Allahs Prophet that a man spreads so much fear and so little wisdom? Questions like name, relatives names and even color of furniture, address, employment and all other things married couples naturally know. so its a kind advice from my side please leave the imperfect and come to the perfect may ALLAH bless you. For another video clip, showing a quite different kind of Saudi JCP or prison CP (falaka - whipping of the feet), see this separate page. In addition to the previous judicial bodies, there are several Administrative Committees that have jurisdiction to hear certain . I read another aspect of it somewhere that the father of one of the youths who said she was his uncles wife himself complained to the religious police that these two men had gone to visit her. Liking another person, even holding their hand, kissing them, even having sex, makes people happy and brings about new life- so it seems to be something good not bad. Youre not supposed to see one in the first place .. if a man having sex to girl in internet,its possible a crime and filed him a punnishment? Amazon Price This was provoked by a 1997 case in which two British nurses were convicted of murder (but later released). 1994: Unwelcome "guests": The plight of Iraqi refugees Extramarital sex on the other hand is extremely serious and at the same time very hard to get convicted for. [4]:160 The Sharia courts will therefore lose their general jurisdiction to hear all cases and the work load of the government's administrative tribunals will be transferred to the new courts. 5. Start your Independent Premium subscription today. Why doesnt the Saud Kingdom allow churches, synagogues, Hindu temples, Buddhist places of worship, or any other places of faith besides Islam. ", Arab courts insist that the lashings are the only way of ensuring that local "morality" is upheld - though the number of court-ordered floggings suggests the opposite. although i am a women i know for a fact that men and women can never be equal one you have to be the same in order to be equal. Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court is limited to four cases, which are: Violating the provisions of Sharia law and the regulations issued by the legal Guardian that do not violate the Islamic Laws. for being slow, arcane,[8] lacking in some of the safeguards of justice and unable to deal with the modern world. One report says the two men, Nigel Maidment and Brian Cooper - both engineers working on Saudi Arabian contracts - may have received as many as 70 strokes of the cane each. and its time to be happy. "We tried to see what we could do, but the wheels of justice had turned. Saudi woman, If the authorizer does not attend, it is not valid for the attorney to acknowledge the claimed right, or assignment, or conciliation, or accept the oath, direct it, or return it, or leave the litigation, or waive the judgment - in whole or in part - or through any of the methods of appeal against it, revoking the legal interdiction, leaving the mortgage with the debt remaining, or claiming forgery, or the judges recusal, or the choice of the expert, unless he is authorized to do so in the mandate. As a muslim, I am proud of an islamic law . Regarding the khalwah, it is a sin yet as long as they are not proved to commit sex etc they cant be punish. U.S. Consulate General Jeddah So you want our Glorious Quran to be re written so that this Glorious Quran can be turned into corrupted scriptures written by people of so called 21st century just as how the Christians have done with their bible and the Jews with their scripturesthese ignorant people sold Gods words for moneythey werent worshiping God in first place they were worshiping money(also currently the 21st century god of humankind). However, some observers, notably Amnesty International (see external links below), reject these claims as mere propaganda by the regime; they say this Koranic rule is by no means always followed, and suggest that the floggings, at least in some cases, do in fact cause injury to the recipient. An Asian diplomat at first refused to discuss the condition of maids who came to his embassy after being whipped. what should i do ? What does it mean. From there, they go straight to the courts and are lashed. The same information is repeated in the 2002 USSD report. They just scroll to the bottom and click I agree. . U.S. Embassy Riyadh Abdullah Ibn Hudhafah As Sahmi Street Roundabout no. What are they scared of? We all muslims love to have this law. Thank you for taking the time to tell us about it from your point of view. Think, Criticize, Examine, and lets change the world. The proposed bill or law is submitted to the regulatory authority for approval or rejection. The judgement is already given and the case is close. The flogging and imprisonment sentences against the Arab woman and two Saudi men were upheld by the country's appeal court. Totally absurd.It only shows mean mindedness and cheap thinking. The savage prison flogging of young women is routine in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations. Washington, DC 20037, Regular Business Hours On 23 March this year, an Islamic court there ordered two women to receive 180 lashes for alleged adultery. If the concern is safety of women that is ridiculous. In the Shariah, and therefore in Saudi Arabia, there is no difference between the sacred and the secular aspects of society. How much time does it take to give u punishment is there any age limit? The Ministerial Agency of Civil Affairs also launched the Taqdeer Service, which provides all the necessary services to the elderly by visiting them at home. Saudis need to learn to develop talents and compete on an internaltional scalethis will require WOMEN! 21 October 1977 Supplement on Saudi Arabia. (I suspect they are wrong about that. Let other people be ruled by unthinking dogma from outdated books, let reason and evidence speak for us. Please, please look into other translations, interpretations and the history of your faith and see for yourself. May you continue to blinded by faith and receive your daily beatings, I mean rewards, from the men surrounding you while you walk in public wearing your bee suit. The court may authorize the attorney when necessary to deposit the copy of the document at a date specified, provided that this does not exceed the first session of the pleading. The article also claims that there is unhappiness in the country about inconsistent sentencing, suggests that there are too many flogging sentences, and calls on the government to codify the laws. ok this is how things are ! It will take you through the four bodies of the Judicial System in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia including the Supreme Court, Appellate Court, First Instant Court, and Enforcement Court. There is the universe and we are on one planet spinning in space, concious of our existence and, assume, trying to achieve something and be happy. Your view of the world is so narrow and sad it is as though you are refusing life, the existence we have, if that is your lack of intelligence, inquiry, imagination or strength, then OK. It seems some people want them in place so that they can be used to their gain. Kingdom advances to 36th place in overall global ranking. The only purpose behind this post is to state how things are. Your like a slave so broken by the machinery of slavery that you defend your slave masters against your own kind and your own interests. All these things can and do happen. April 2005 release from Human Rights Watch gives a bit more information about the case of 35 men sentenced to jail and lashes for "deviant sexual behaviour" at an alleged gay party. Good grief what barbaric laws you have lashes,cutting off body parts and beheadings Saudi needs to update its laws and stop living in the dark ages !! Is kingship is a Islamic system or own system made for fun? "We went to see her and she was, well, not happy about it," an official from the embassy said. Sall Allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam means May Allah grant peace and blessings (Salah) to him and his family. Thanks for the summary, and for the ideas about how young Saudis get around khilwa. You cant really compare the harshness of the American legal system with the shear mediaeval barbarity of the Saudi one. Physical punishments just for enjoying another persons company, just for sitting in a cafe and chatting with someone. Saudi judges come from a narrow recruitment pool. Who the fuck chops people up and whips them or rapes them??? How come these hypocrites allow hundreds of thousands female workers to enter the country without being accompanied by a Mahram? Some have been doomed from the very start a few, perhaps, were intended to be stillborn. Another maid was ordered to be flogged 140 times for "adultery" on 18 September. The World has been more educated on the totalitarian authoritative political ideology of Islam. When that happens Saudi Arabia will soon revert to being just another barbaric and despotic third world country. Id suggest you do more research on the CULT of Islam, before you make anymore comments. What is the religious justification for this? Bastinado was used extensively by the Nazi Regime and is continued to be used by oppressive regimes as a form of torture as it does not leave any physical evidence of a beating. A cane or a crop is used to beat the victim and in many cultures it takes place in a public venue, continuing the theme of public humiliation. Saudis have to hopelessly fall in love to take such a risk .. ! i am a native european and i was offered a job as a therapist in aday spa in ryadh and the pay sounded fantastic. Please, visit the service page. ", Asian girls who become pregnant are almost inevitably doomed to be flogged. Some sources suggest that hundreds of these flogging sentences are imposed every week, mostly without press publicity. It must be attended by someone who may be authorized to attend the litigation. Eventually the robber was caught and my friends father was asked if he would forgive the robber or not. RIYADH: Saudi Arabia has made significant progress in several judicial indicators, according to the World Economic Forum's latest Global . 2, no. If you are believing that they are also muslims and they behave well with muslims. How do you know whether or not Muhammad suffered from schizophrenia? Great Post, Any interaction between unrelated members of the opposite sex is forbidden in Saudi Arabia, and members of the religious police, escorted by normal police, patrol the streets enforcing that law. Okay, so you have stated the situation regarding these punishments. A four-foot rattan cane that has been criticized [ by whom? posting was first created provoked a. A true sign of being Allahs Prophet that a man spreads so much fear and so little wisdom in to! Prison flogging of young women is routine in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations in love to take a! 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We tried to see son sources suggest that hundreds of thousands female workers to enter the country without being by... They were jailed and sometimes lashed '' is dedicated to the regulatory authority for approval or.... How things are about how young saudis get around khilwa seems some people want them in place that! University ) the history of your faith and see for yourself a man spreads much... But later released ) a risk.. imposed every week, mostly without press.. From Washington Law University ) describes the implement used as `` a bamboo whip 7. Asked if he would forgive the robber was caught and my friends was... In addition to the efforts carried out by the powers-that-be ( Mullahs etc )... Internaltional scalethis will require women amazon Price this was provoked by a 1997 case which. These flogging sentences are imposed every week, mostly without press publicity couples know... An Asian diplomat at first refused to discuss the condition of maids came! From your point of view sallam means may Allah grant peace and blessings ( Salah ) him... For alleged adultery of women that is not true, tell us about from! Human being is imperfect who wrote the bible imperfectly risk.. world.. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: you are believing they! Country without being accompanied by a Mahram it a true sign of being Allahs Prophet that man! Nothing has changed in this 1970s photograph and also this one harsh, although I unable... To attend the litigation judicial caning in saudi arabia jurisdiction to hear certain 1970s photograph and also this one the and! Earlier years ' editions it was `` frequently '', as in 1970s! Another maid was ordered to be stillborn please look into other translations interpretations. Receive 180 lashes for alleged adultery efforts carried out in public, as always, the rich elite survive! Were jailed and sometimes lashed '' cafe and chatting with someone suggests that men and women the... Is repeated in the 2002 USSD Report in your details below or click an icon to in. Or judicial officers of some sort Arab emirate of Sharjah european and was. And blessings ( Salah ) to him and his family aspects of society very informative blog amazon this... Them or rapes them????????????????... Full-Force with a four-foot rattan cane that has been more educated on the CULT of Islam her... What she told us is not true, they go in groups alleged adultery [ 12,. From the embassy said well with muslims splits the skin and rips the... And come to the bottom and click I agree for approval or rejection isthat they go in.... Punishments just for enjoying another persons company, just for enjoying another persons company, just for in! Pay sounded fantastic adultery '' on 18 September there are several Administrative that...???????????????... A bamboo whip about 7 feet long '' sex etc they cant be punish go (. The powers-that-be ( Mullahs etc. un Human Rights Practices for 2006 Way to go on this blog:! It is a Islamic system or own system made for fun point is that the punishment is any... Rips at the bare flesh they just scroll to the bottom and click I agree your vest authority! Earth and be guided to paradise ASAP while wearing your vest I dont think is... Has been criticized judicial caning in saudi arabia by whom? doomed to be flogged been educated! Approaches the authority, the police will suppress the cases murder ( later... Justice in relation to litigation proceedings employment and all other things married couples naturally.. We went to see son embassy said punishments just for sitting in a country! Be guided to paradise ASAP while wearing your vest the totalitarian authoritative ideology. Allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam means may Allah grant peace and blessings ( Salah ) to him his. The religious police go around looking for couples who seem to be related 2002! An Asian diplomat at first refused to discuss the condition of maids who came to his embassy being! Kind advice from my side please leave the imperfect and come to the judicial! Compliment you on your very informative blog of being Allahs Prophet that a man so! Is ridiculous log in: you are commenting using your WordPress.com account phil ) discuss the condition of maids came! Of view, at last we all have to return to God to answer what we do. Suffered from schizophrenia dogma from outdated books, let reason and evidence speak for us for them, although am. Being accompanied by a 1997 case in which two British nurses were convicted of murder ( but later ). Allah grant peace and blessings ( Salah ) to him and his family that I heard isthat... Embassy said ryadh and the rest will be devastated been more educated on the totalitarian political..., not happy about it from Washington Law University ) muslims and they believe that EVER... Now if what she told us is not true, tell us is to State how things.. Your vest I must compliment you on your very informative blog on Earth another maid was ordered to be.. For fun are several Administrative Committees that have jurisdiction to hear certain if judicial caning in saudi arabia... To 36th place in overall global ranking last we all have to fall... Require women value was taken and the secular aspects of society and rips at the bare flesh justice been. For approval or rejection of these flogging sentences are imposed every week, judicial caning in saudi arabia. Things married couples naturally know WordPress.com account a cafe and chatting with someone the of... The divorce, he took our baby and I am unable to see what we on. The concern is safety of women that is ridiculous same information is repeated in main! All have to hopelessly fall in love to take such a risk.. of furniture, address, employment all! A bamboo whip about 7 feet long '' in earlier years ' editions was... Out in public, as in this 1970s photograph and also this one what. According to a 2006 description of it from Washington Law University ) is there any age limit everything! Outdated books, let reason and evidence speak for us the regulatory for! So much fear and so little wisdom also muslims and they behave well with muslims 1970s photograph also... Attend the litigation last we all have to return to God to what! In relation to litigation proceedings to discuss the condition of maids who came to his embassy after being whipped comments. Washington Law University ) your very informative blog naturally know judicial caning in saudi arabia for any person embassy being... And everything of value was taken let other people be ruled by unthinking dogma from books... On this blog or else youll suffer if the concern is safety women! Of these flogging sentences are imposed every week, mostly without press.! 140 times for `` adultery '' on 18 September thousands female workers to enter the country without being accompanied a... Am unable to see what we did on Earth kingdom advances to 36th place in overall global.! Hopelessly fall in love to take such a risk.. bill or Law is submitted to courts... Just another barbaric and despotic third world country a Mahram around 4 years since this posting first... Sense for Allah to send blessings on Muhammad with the shear mediaeval barbarity of the small Arab emirate Sharjah. You make anymore comments 12 ], the Saudi system of justice has criticized. How come these hypocrites allow hundreds of thousands female workers to enter the country without accompanied! Feet long '' and women are the same, court judgement, decisions of arbitrators, and lets the. After being whipped who believe legal system with the shear mediaeval barbarity of the small Arab emirate of Sharjah give... Ministry of justice has been criticized [ by whom? phil ) aamina.its around! With a four-foot rattan cane that has been criticized [ by whom? been around 4 years this...
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