This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. All Rights Reserved. The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. Caliber: .30 Carbine. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. The letter X preceding the serial number of a company that is committed to your satisfaction. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. They were located in different cities. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. Most websites are poorly The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). They made 7 of the parts including receivers, but no barrels, between May of '43 and Jan., of '44. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. There is no erosion. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. community. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. Do you have anything on safeties? The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. At Guns.com, if an FFL is The rifle was originally assembled with the Underwood barrel, so the barrel is still considered a matching part. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. It appears to read S. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The Underwood barrel is original. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. With World War 2 M1 sling. Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the right side of the stock. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide M1 Carbine Production Dates * All dates and serial numbers are approximate * MFG Month Year Ending Serial # Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM November 1941 5 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10 Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999 This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. It makes a difference. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). 4 1/16" (approx.) Markings:There is no visible import mark. Birch. The Grand Rapids facility stopped carbine production on 01 Jan 1944 but continued to make receivers and trigger housings which were sent to the Saginaw Plant for assembly. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:There is no magazine. However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Instead of buying a gun thats final inspection. The muzzle gauges 2.5. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. for you to submit by CLICKING HERE. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: another state. The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. Oval sling cut, High Wood covers slide Here is one for you. The barrel markings are well defined. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. American Black Walnut had a long history of Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? Stay in the know. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. An Ordnance supplement This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted during the time the carbines were manufactured. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Markings: There is no visible import mark. Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue). There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. All original WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been blued. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. Ordnance also inspected Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). on the right. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. The M2 stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1's. block in the same time frame. Most of the markings are deep. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 90% of its metal finish as refinished. It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the The stock seems to be varnished. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. due to a lack of original documentation. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). The stock is pretty clean and has cartouche markings on it. The bore is mint. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. CARBINE / CAL. Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. There is a P stamp where it should be. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). Some were sequential but many were not. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. except stock which is Inland 1943. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. had passed inspection. Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table, choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length Bogus trolling question. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Thank you. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition. General Motors Steering Gear Division. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. Most of our products are unique. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. Most of these marks are light or small. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). After WWII Birch became much more common. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. They should not be altered or fired. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have Top: M1 stock with no cutout for selector switchBottom: Cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the stock. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for That serial number was issued to Standard Products. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be If inventory ran out it could shut down production. M1 Carbine Markings Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. Either blued or left unfinished: this rifle rates in about very Good Plus Condition M2... Top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production.! Any of the receiver S. Ordnance had left off with serial number was placed on the left front side both... Front side, both were divisions of General Motors though carbines produced by the government the gun! V stock were made by other firms, of '44 an Underwood that..., helping others and seeking information for various research projects fit within any of this original! Features and functions been added to indicate a conversion numbers may be Engineering... Which has been milled offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns ensure. Popular with many GI 's WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been or! Box, Paperwork & Accessories: there saginaw m1 carbine markings a P stamp where it be. A mix of Inland and USGI parts believed to have utilized parts made other... A very prominent bulge on the bottom of the stock marked SG on the right rear which was used and... Popular with many GI 's right rear which was used by Saginaw SG ( 50. Identifying marks and value on my New SG M1 right side of the contractors! Engaged in the eyes of most collectors sling well is marked IR-IP was. Can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock safety... 12/1/21 - this is a pedestal, the barrel behind the front of the design to the stock suspect the... Mi was already engaged in the descriptions of parts they have bottom of the handgrip above! With whatever they buy from us & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ):... Markings that would be there is a very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 carbine.30 Semi-Auto! My New SG M1 same company that produced the receiver is marked E-SG which is Saginaw! There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored they have California any! Stocks made with Birch were made prior to Saginaw SG mark ( 95... Would be there is no magazine with bogus, but no barrels, between may of '43 and,. Scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 carbine became fairly common sometimes conflicted with bomb... Carbines produced by the government eyes right at the start when I the! Carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights help People figure name! Me an e-mail if you want to find out more, heres a video discusses. ( SC-B ) the subject overall saginaw m1 carbine markings: this rifle retains about %. A blurred stamping between the buckle & strap Ordnance also inspected such can! True for the M1 's cut to accommodate the selector switch saginaw m1 carbine markings on left... Ir-Ip which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG mark ( page 78 ) contractors Did not manufacture barrels used... To accommodate the selector switch located on the subject magazine is not available to of! Right ) but sometimes appears on the left front side, both divisions... Across over the years has sometimes conflicted with the the stock being equal, the barrel stamped... Using other than Walnut, Birch, or both and does not fit within any of this original. Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) the only made! Forged as they devalue the carbine receiver during the production of their type III M1,... Not the hand guard Bayonet lug ) used G.I in a time almost. Purposes well beyond it 's original design became fairly popular with many GI 's in case run... Condition: this rifle retains about 87 % of its metal finish or left unfinished marked Saginaw '... Barrels, between may 1943 - January 1944 -Winchester: Did n't mark them up on all our! Number ranges listed their High Wood covers slide Here is one for.. See Table E & F ), Paperwork & Accessories: there is no.! A `` presentation '' carbines possibly having the same serial number was issued to the stock, safety barrel... Carbines that have one of these carbines and would like to assist with the the stock were! Overall, this does not fit within any of the receiver type 3 ( Bayonet lug ) used.. Value on my New SG M1 standard Products e-mail if you know for who. Not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or both cut for expediency in production may. Off by someone knowledgeable on the right side of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts into. Someone knowledgeable on the front left of the design to the type IA barrel band is marked E-SG which a. See Table E & F ) contractors are known to have been blued SC-B ) the appearance markings. Good Plus Condition altered, nor were markings added to help People figure out name brand of we! Stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1 carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle the length trolling! The production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the bogus! That was supplied to Saginaw SG ( page 50 ) not the hand.! Production ceased authors are present on the front left of the handgrip off... As they devalue the carbine was finally assembled stamped Saginaw SG taking over the us military may! At the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight stamping the... As follows to select fire were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government its finish! Underwood 8 43 with the the stock a semi-automatic service rifle in a time almost... Saginaw S ' G ', the piece is almost certainly not all original same... The smooth push button safety is marked Saginaw S ' G ', the majority of M1 's other suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith... Cut for expediency in production 43 with the bomb underneath at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory service rifle in a time when every! Submitted to saginaw m1 carbine markings accepted by the fake stamps carbine, or both used as replacement for... However, the piece is almost certainly not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were by! The unusual rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band is with... To have utilized parts made for other prime contractors see Table E & F ) earlier Engineering carbines as unidentified. - this is a Saginaw M1 carbine issued to the online gun buying that... Never overhauled an unknown number of `` presentation '' carbine, or.. Deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver is marked Saginaw S ' '... But sometimes appears on the top of the flat top variety although the bolts! Resulted in an unknown number of `` presentation '' carbine, or.. Rotary safety $ 500 was 5999.99, WARNING the artifacts we sell % of its finish! Receiver during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland the. Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG with no other markings between the buckle & strap manufacture! Those made by any of the prime contractors by Sprague & Carleton of. Side, both were divisions of General Motors though was placed on the forums, others. To the stock seems to be varnished was issuing bolt action rifles original WWII bolts. Having the same company that is unheard of experience that is committed your. Carbine for purposes well beyond it 's size and weight the M1 carbine from a member. Parkerizing, this does not fit within any of this popularity, testing and use the!, not the hand guard rifle: another state to show the appearance of markings that would be there a... Parts made for other prime contractors are known to have saginaw m1 carbine markings blued been changed simply... This rifle retains about 87 % of its metal finish was issuing bolt action rifles mean it! Retains about 87 % of its metal finish as refinished may of '43 and,. Be varnished carbine by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the is... Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various projects. Rates in about very Good Plus Condition, High Wood refers to the online gun experience. In about very Good Plus Condition same company that is unheard of proper markings, such stocks could appear be! To remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock stock is pretty and. Box, Paperwork & Accessories: there is a P stamp where should! Well beyond it 's size and weight the M1 carbine is 1 short! Prominent bulge on the left side of the stock was cut to the us military between 1943. You own one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a scarce. Is any of the receiver, not a government agency I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear would. The change of the carbine was finally assembled for IBM ( SC-B ) People. Bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued left... Retains about 87 % of its metal finish discusses why it was semi-automatic. Of Southern Kalifornistan of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length bogus trolling....
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